Jun 3, 2020

I know most people were prob well-meaning but that was sooooo lame lol

 

Jun 2, 2020

What makes you say I haven’t been introspective? I feel like I’ve been very clear that I think the way this movement is being carried out is not ideal has tons of shortcomings. There’s a lack of mass organization that’s going to obscure the end goal in the eyes of many people.

When I say life or death situation, what I mean is that as white people we don’t know what it’s like to live in fear of being shot over a speeding ticket. It’s a type of fear that we can never understand so of course we have the luxury of decrying the riots because in the meantime we know that we’re not gonna get shot over a $20 check or our brother’s not gonna get shot or our dad or cousin or grandpa. The only thing we can do is believe them and support them, so that’s what I’m doing. I’m believing black people when they say that their fear is real and that they believe this is worth rioting for. and to be clear I’m not accusing you of being against protesting or not believing black people. I know that at the end of the day we’re on the same side.

And I mean yeah, it’s not genocide, but why does it have to be genocide for this to be urgent? Would you tell a black person that this isn’t worth rebelling and destroying property for because it isn’t genocide and millions aren’t dying? If I was a member of a minority population and I saw my people being murdered by police over and over with no change and no consequences and peaceful protests being quashed and boo’d...I guess to me it’s just an easy choice between destruction of property and waiting for some sort of better opportunity and taking the chance that a family member gets murdered along the way.

I don’t have a percentage for performative wokeness but of course that irks me. It irks me when riots aren’t going on. but at the same time, white people are being performatively woke all day every day so I guess I don’t see how that’s relevant or I’m misunderstanding you.

 

Jun 2, 2020

figured this was rhetorical, and i think we're reaching the point of ad nauseum, so i left it, but i see that you addressed the same question to @cpt awesome WPG joint acc, so i'll hit you with my thoughts..

i 1000% agree with you -- with all of you -- on the macro level. i think that's apparent, and if not, then i want you to know that now. i don't want any of this either, but it's come to this and i'm not blinded by the necessity of the pointed destruction rn. i just want that destruction to be appropriately directed and to not be a wreckless free-for-all where anxy teenagers go out to f--- some s--- up simply knowing that they can place the blame on the civil unrest. or where coordinated efforts across criminal groups are hitting targeted areas each night with no motive but personal gain. or where opportunists charade in masks of protestors who are actually standing for change and aren't there for personal instant gratification. or where snakes chameleon their way through the crowds to let their aggressions out on mom n pop shops. and so, my answer to your very difficult question would simply be: eliminate these specific types of micro behaviors, and then i'd be onboard with 100% of both the macro and as well as the rest of the micro levels. would that be easy to do? f--- no. but it is a better, viable, way. and it's okay to be disappointed in those who are preventing this from happening.

it really is interesting that while you, myself, @Enigma , @cpt awesome WPG joint acc , & @Chewie are seemingly in agreement on that macro level, we can't come to agreement on the micro (even myself and chewie are in disagreement on portions -- i don't care about *parts* of the destruction, while he is against it entirely -- and that's okay). it may seem petty, but it really is quite important because we're not the only ones spending so much energy on this, with others doing so on much larger & louder platforms.

i'm trying to phrase this closing thought in a way that isn't, "lol, see -- obama even agrees with me!", but i do think that the 4th paragraph of his Medium post from above is what i've been desperately trying to say for the past 30 pages now. these minority efforts are detracting from the overall cause and they shouldn't be excused. and that's been the problem in my eyes -- and frankly, has been the only problem in my eyes. if we (even just the 5 of us) had shared the same sentiment from the start (whether it had been your train of thought, or mine, or someone elses -- not relevant), then this entire thread would have been a much more macro-level discussion, and alone, we would have made more positive, public, awareness (if even a little). i said it in a previous message to you, @Donkey Kong Cuntry , but this thread alone is so spot-on representative of the larger media's focus/divisiveness + other individuals' conversations -- h---, i pulled up my fb feed and this was the largest topic being discussed -- which has already proven to detract from the macro message at hand and has larger populations of civilians ultimately torn on what's going on...and if nothing else, that's super interesting (and a very sad result).

 

Jun 1, 2020

i haven't seen this posted here yet and it's really worth the 4 minute read, from Obama:

How to Make this Moment the Turning Point for Real Change
Barack Obama
Jun 1 · 4 min read

As millions of people across the country take to the streets and raise their voices in response to the killing of George Floyd and the ongoing problem of unequal justice, many people have reached out asking how we can sustain momentum to bring about real change.

Ultimately, it’s going to be up to a new generation of activists to shape strategies that best fit the times. But I believe there are some basic lessons to draw from past efforts that are worth remembering.

First, the waves of protests across the country represent a genuine and legitimate frustration over a decades-long failure to reform police practices and the broader criminal justice system in the United States. The overwhelming majority of participants have been peaceful, courageous, responsible, and inspiring. They deserve our respect and support, not condemnation — something that police in cities like Camden and Flint have commendably understood.

On the other hand, the small minority of folks who’ve resorted to violence in various forms, whether out of genuine anger or mere opportunism, are putting innocent people at risk, compounding the destruction of neighborhoods that are often already short on services and investment and detracting from the larger cause. I saw an elderly black woman being interviewed today in tears because the only grocery store in her neighborhood had been trashed. If history is any guide, that store may take years to come back. So let’s not excuse violence, or rationalize it, or participate in it. If we want our criminal justice system, and American society at large, to operate on a higher ethical code, then we have to model that code ourselves.

Second, I’ve heard some suggest that the recurrent problem of racial bias in our criminal justice system proves that only protests and direct action can bring about change, and that voting and participation in electoral politics is a waste of time. I couldn’t disagree more. The point of protest is to raise public awareness, to put a spotlight on injustice, and to make the powers that be uncomfortable; in fact, throughout American history, it’s often only been in response to protests and civil disobedience that the political system has even paid attention to marginalized communities. But eventually, aspirations have to be translated into specific laws and institutional practices — and in a democracy, that only happens when we elect government officials who are responsive to our demands.

Moreover, it’s important for us to understand which levels of government have the biggest impact on our criminal justice system and police practices. When we think about politics, a lot of us focus only on the presidency and the federal government. And yes, we should be fighting to make sure that we have a president, a Congress, a U.S. Justice Department, and a federal judiciary that actually recognize the ongoing, corrosive role that racism plays in our society and want to do something about it. But the elected officials who matter most in reforming police departments and the criminal justice system work at the state and local levels.

It’s mayors and county executives that appoint most police chiefs and negotiate collective bargaining agreements with police unions. It’s district attorneys and state’s attorneys that decide whether or not to investigate and ultimately charge those involved in police misconduct. Those are all elected positions. In some places, police review boards with the power to monitor police conduct are elected as well. Unfortunately, voter turnout in these local races is usually pitifully low, especially among young people — which makes no sense given the direct impact these offices have on social justice issues, not to mention the fact that who wins and who loses those seats is often determined by just a few thousand, or even a few hundred, votes.

So the bottom line is this: if we want to bring about real change, then the choice isn’t between protest and politics. We have to do both. We have to mobilize to raise awareness, and we have to organize and cast our ballots to make sure that we elect candidates who will act on reform.

Finally, the more specific we can make demands for criminal justice and police reform, the harder it will be for elected officials to just offer lip service to the cause and then fall back into business as usual once protests have gone away. The content of that reform agenda will be different for various communities. A big city may need one set of reforms; a rural community may need another. Some agencies will require wholesale rehabilitation; others should make minor improvements. Every law enforcement agency should have clear policies, including an independent body that conducts investigations of alleged misconduct. Tailoring reforms for each community will require local activists and organizations to do their research and educate fellow citizens in their community on what strategies work best.

But as a starting point, here’s a "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">report and toolkit developed by the Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights and based on the work of the Task Force on 21st Century Policing that I formed when I was in the White House. And if you’re interested in taking concrete action, we’ve also created a dedicated "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">site at the Obama Foundation to aggregate and direct you to useful resources and organizations who’ve been fighting the good fight at the local and national levels for years.

I recognize that these past few months have been hard and dispiriting — that the fear, sorrow, uncertainty, and hardship of a pandemic have been compounded by tragic reminders that prejudice and inequality still shape so much of American life. But watching the heightened activism of young people in recent weeks, of every race and every station, makes me hopeful. If, going forward, we can channel our justifiable anger into peaceful, sustained, and effective action, then this moment can be a real turning point in our nation’s long journey to live up to our highest ideals.

Let’s get to work.

 

Jun 1, 2020

feel free to change the discussion of this thread if that direction, but also don't tell me what i should be questioning about myself, or where i align, because you've come to conclusions based on my feelings about looting or a playground being burned. we're not that far apart.