Jun 22, 2017 Fair enough Ehhhh....no I think the underlying issue here is that people are outraged and there's no way for it to be expressed "properly." The cliche "there are some bad apples" argument is getting tiresome. The whole d--- system is the problem. People try protesting, their labeled "thugs" & "rioters." They try recording it, people say the footage doesn't show the whole story. They try to take it to court and a jury acquits the officer. Its like not only do we have to tip-toe around the issue but we can't even do anything about it. People are more upset about police being generalized than this phenomenon of police wrongfully killing African-Americans. Read your own posts, you even seem more upset at WPG than the officer.
Jun 22, 2017 my point in saying what i said isn't that we should cast moral judgments and have that be the endpoint; what i'm saying is that we have a self-selected group of people who are willing to further this institution's cause. but michael myers says a lot of them are good guys, so
Jun 22, 2017 Not unless every single American citizen is a bad person. It's just not a useful way to frame the issue. We all partake in toxic systems that are causing a tremendous amount of harm every day. Do you have an iPhone? Every time we salute the flag, shop at supermarkets, flush the toilet, have our lights on all night, drive a car, so on and so forth, we're keeping toxic institutions alive and we're doing it willingly. Are all soldiers bad people with "unforgivable character flaws" because they choose to be part of an organization that carries out illegal / unjustifiable conflicts around the world? Or do they maybe not see it that way? Many of those people join because they genuinely believe they can make a positive difference. It's not the "bad people" who are aware they're doing terrible things you need to be worried about. Those people, for the most part, don't exist. It's the "good people" who unwittingly take part in something foul for what they think are good reasons. That's Hannah Arendt's banality of evil: the idea that the Nazis were motivated by malice misses the point entirely. Missing that point sets the stage for something like it to happen again. Getting this question wrong has real consequences. Stop focusing on whether people are "bad apples" and start talking about the barrel they're in. Try to understand how people can be part of something horrible with the best of intentions, without intending to do (or even being aware of) the harm they do. It's not people you need to be worried about. It's institutions. And it's ideas. It's the stories that shape how they see the world, what they see, and more importantly what they don't see. You're a writer professionally. You understand the power of narrative. You can't call someone a bad person simply for buying into a different story than you do. You can say they've got the wrong narrative, but you actually need to understand how that narrative can be compelling to them. Less finger pointing and more empathy.
Jun 22, 2017 wait, im smelling the stench of class in this post. cop is mostly a working class profession --as an institution law enforcement may have inherently racist practices and policies, but there's many decent working class men and women who serve with absolutely good intentions. militarizing police forces is probably wrong. but there are sooo many communities that are outliers - just watch fargo, heh.
Jun 22, 2017 Seems like every couple years there is just an explosion of organize crime out of no where in Fargo, North Dakota... And by Fargo, North Dakota, I mean the state of Minnesota.
Jun 22, 2017 setting aside the absurd, cliched "you're typing this on an iphone" example, the question of whether you can be an ethical consumer under capitalism is not at all the same as people choosing to become police officers. but you're missing my point entirely: i'm not saying that people choose to become police officers because they want to go murder black americans. i'm saying they want to join the institution in spite of that institution's effects. ....what thread have you been reading? that's what i'm doing. that's not my problem. adding your own body to an institution that wreaks this much havoc is despicable, regardless of whether you naively believe you're doing some sort of good. and frankly, f--- you for reducing the very material consequences the police have on millions of americans to "narrative."
Jun 22, 2017 i could not be less swayed by what someone's intentions are in joining the police force. i really couldn't.
Jun 22, 2017 Ok well - that's not really a receipt for my point, and doesn't justify wildly condemning a huge segment of blue collar workers. Bobby Kennedy was both a champion of civil rights while saddling up to law enforcement and making them allies. (Admittedly perhaps off course but nevertheless worth mentioning) Edit - fwiw I've absolutey known my fair share of arrogant, ridiculous bros who signed up for the wrong reasons. There's definite challenges that need addressing but exorbitant rhetoric isn't helpful beyond echo chambering
Jun 22, 2017 You think even "ethical consumption under capitalism" (whatever that means) doesn't have a body count? What about people who aren't ethical consumers? Are they ALL terrible people? Or is that a reduction? My point isn't "you're typing this on an iPhone, you hypocrite." It's that we all live with cognitive dissonance that lets us tolerate, justify, or even outright blind us to the harm we're participating in. Police aren't an exception. Which leads into the next thing you said... This is my point about capitalism and the military (which you reduced to some snide remark about iPhones). We all voluntarily take part in several of these institutions, in spite of their effects. If that's your criteria for what makes a bad person, literally every single person in this country is a bad person - to say nothing of the rest of the world. That means it's not a helpful way to frame the issue. You think it's different just because the harm is more difficult to trace? It's less obvious, so it's not as bad? You asked what I thought the right conversation was (and threw in a sarcastic remark about how maybe I think we should be talking about how police can murder people more humanely). I answered your question. If you think you've been doing that, that's fine, but I think there's a contradiction you're not acknowledging. What about adding your dollars to institutions that wreak havoc? That is your problem. Sure, the effects are despicable. I don't disagree. But you can't reduce that to the flawed character of individuals if you're being consistent. It's a caricature of what's happening. Nothing in life is that clean. It's not a reduction at all. Personal experience, statistics, facts... nothing interprets itself. We spend our whole lives telling each other stories about who we are, who other people are, what things mean, why things happen, what should happen, and how to change things. That's narrative. It creates the whole filter through which you see the world. It creates how you see, what you see, what you value, and what you're blind to. If you don't think narrative is a major part in what makes people commit to their institutions, you just don't understand how humans think.
Jun 22, 2017 yeah so you're just not following what i'm saying at all, and you're making no attempt to. if you can't see how someone's existence under capitalism (and yes, its unavoidable, often grave consequences) is different from a person choosing to join the police force, then i'm not going to waste any more time on you. this is futile. eh this is not really us having wildly different interpretations of the framework, it's just a difference in politics--a matter of degree, even. i know politicians (and people generally) who have championed progressive causes have also aligned themselves with law enforcement. i know there are police officers who, in other facets of their life, are not outwardly horrible, or not that much different from us or our allies on a whole host of issues. i simply don't think any of that means that the police, as an institution or as a collection of individuals, is defensible. i think it should be entirely dismantled and reimagined.
Jun 22, 2017 There are a lot of cops that join a police force as a second career in their 30's or 40's... After they have done other things in their life. I rather be pulled over by that guy than the guy who went straight to the Police Academy after high school.
Jun 22, 2017 lmfao, f--- no, they aren't even allowed in court unless the judge allows it cops only use them so that a criminal will get scared and admit to a crime
Jun 22, 2017 Like carpentry or truck driving... Bank teller... I don't know... House inspector. Being an adult civilian without a badge, siren and nightstick.
Jun 22, 2017 Where I live it's almost impossible to become a cop unless you have a family member already in or are a veteran.Pretty sure they need a bachelors in criminal justice as well. Waiting lists for academy are insane
