Dec 3, 2015

I'm not arguing about the quality of his pictures, just saying they clearly bear his specific signature. Writing him off as derivative is the easy way out. You can't tell me Julien Donkey-Boy isn't an extremely personal vision.

I've watched 3 of his movies. Not sure what you think auteur means, but it's pretty clearly defined and he meets those standards.

 

Dec 3, 2015

Fair enough but not my point. I'm saying up until recently you hadn't seen Gummo so curious when exactly you decided Korine was an auteur. Was it before you read his wiki?

Further, his films have a clear style, sure. (I'm not denying his writing btw - you will note I'm not knocking Larry Clark.) But given the fact I think Korine is a faux euro filmmaker who - at least in the case of Spring Breakers - makes watered down pop ~art, I don't rly see him as a serious auteur. If you're derivative how can you be an auteur? It baffles me this continues to be a point of contention lol - sorry I didn't like one movie!!!

 

Dec 3, 2015

I saw Spring Breakers the week it came out? I've also seen more of his work than you apparently. Your statements about his writing and style clearly support that he is an auteur. That's not even up for debate.

Calling him derivative is general to the point of meaningless. You'd have to make a case for conforming to disconformity. He's repurposed his influences. His identity is consistent and unique.

 

Dec 3, 2015

I don't agree. Look, lil man, kid brother... De palma was generally dismissed as a hitchcock disciple during the first half of his career. its only been fairly recently that his body of work has been reconsidered. meaning, regardless of your visual style, if there's a sense you're derivative, that nullifies your status as a serious filmmaker. (edit: this conversation keeps skewing into sounding like art is some rubric. it isnt, shout out dead poets) i liked gummo, i even liked spring breakers frankly... but i dont think they rise to the level of other better filmmakers. its not a term you dole out because someone happens to s---t his films frenetically. is joe begos an auteur?

im rly not debating his work as a writer -- i suppose you could claim mamet and sorkin etc are auteurists, but this conversation began strictly discussing filmmaking.

and apparently not slut ive seen all his films! (i think)

 

Dec 3, 2015

You must have very high standards for what an auteur is for us to diverge so much on this. The plagiarist accusations you're putting to Korine fall just as flat as when they're put against Tarantino. Not to mention they really only kind of maybe work for Gummo and completely fall apart once you get to Spring Breakers which is a complete inverse of his early stuff.

 

Dec 3, 2015

fair point -- to be honest with you, its been awhile since ive watched gummo.

ugh tarantino. im debating whether to see hateful 8 tmrw

 

Dec 3, 2015

Korine has full creative control, and his films are imprinted with a distinguishable signature. He is an auteur.
Michael Bay is also an auteur.

Based on the latter, being an auteur isn't synonymous with good filmmaking. Being an auteur is synonymous with having a cohesive body of work, whether you relate to that body of work or not is up to you. It can be trusted that a great auteur with whom you 'click' with will have an entire body of work of interest to you. A non director, like Aaron Sorkin, or even cinematographers like Lubezki, cannot be called auteurs, even if a similarity in the meaning of the word applies.

PS: I think Tarantino is a worse auteur than Korine. And I don't even like Korine much.

 

Dec 3, 2015

Fine, but if (for instance) if a filmmaker is clearly borrowing heavily from another director's style, you think their consistency overrides their unoriginality? I think personal stamp has to be a factor, as it seemingly is with Bay.

 

Dec 3, 2015

Everyone borrows from everyone. An entire film can be derivative, like a Tarantino film, but it's still original. You can't replay a person's style without making it your own. There's no such thing as pure originality. Originality can be borrowed and tweaked. I'd say your description of unoriginality is simply a characteristic of an uninteresting auteur who is less than who he copies from. But maybe some people will think he borrows and makes better.

 

Dec 3, 2015

I think you may be adumbrating my hesitation calling Korine an auteur -- I believe this began by my initially distancing him from Von trier, distinguishing him as a 'true auteur' ...true as in original, thought provoking, etc.

There's a wide gap isnt there from a quote derivative Tarantino film, and actually derivative Tarantino knockoffs (like the ones prevalent after pulp fiction). like, yes everyone borrows - bob dylan borrows, yada yada. i hope that explains my perspective. this discussion is interesting from a theoretical standpoint, but im worried it obscures the intentions of bad- or worse- uninteresting filmmakers. lets stay vigilant.

 

Dec 3, 2015

Von Trier is more original and thought provoking. But I don't think it makes him a truer auteur, just a better one. And that's in your and my eyes, not everybody's. I just jumped in cause Korine was unjustifiably getting the short shrift. I'm not really sure why you call him derivative or unoriginal in the first place. If creativity/originality is the rubric for trueness than Korine has it in spades. Maybe you can provide some examples, cause I'm not sure what he borrows nor from whom. Meanwhile, Tarantino literally derives every shot of every film from something he has previously seen. He is known for parsing out cinema history on his screen, and particularly bringing Chinese Cinema into an American light by rehashing, sometimes shot for shot, entire sequences from lesser known Asian cinema. Those that follow in Tarantino's path don't do it the same, and I can't think of a single director I would call a Tarantino knockoff. Cause even in all his borrowing, he's pretty d--- original as well. You know who else borrow a lot? Eisenstein from Pudovkin, Eustache from Bresson, 90% of the world from Welles, and every Chinese director post 1980 from Hou Hsiao-Hsien. Would you say Eisenstein, Eustache, and Ming-Liang are lesser auteurs for the fact?

 

Dec 3, 2015

The GOAT Dan Clark.

 

Dec 3, 2015

You can't think of a single Tarantino knock off? id toss in guy ritchie in there, or just this: http://blogs.indiewire.com/theplayl...-from-quentin-tarantino-pulp-fiction-20140521 (if we're discussing his legacy, i think there's a major argument to be made about the shift in american popular film after tarantino, particularly in the mid-late 90s rise of indie cinema)

We're starting to conflate things a bit. I wasn't defending Tarantino - in fact, I've been rather critical of him in the past for some of the reasons you mention. Moreover, my reasons for disliking Tarantino are similiar to my knock on Kormine. Both (at least in the case of Spring Breakers) took something that was already out there, and made it more digestible and slick. I just think Kormine idolizes guys like warhol and a s--- ton of impenetrable european filmmakers, but lacks their brilliance and gravitas. he's like a prankster. regardless though, i'm not denying people don't borrow lol, or that you can't be influenced... this is a bit of a frivolous anti-debate, im arguing there's a good way to do it, and bad. tarantino can be good, but something the homages veer into flat plagiarism. so this rly isnt a debate about Eisenstein or Welles... it's about the line of overt influence. as i mentioned earlier, de palma was seen as a hitchcock clone. its all relative i suppose, but thats my pov

truer=better. bit of a semantics debate no?

 

Dec 3, 2015

ill also post this here. this is from sasha stones fb:


Sasha Stone
Twice so far this year I've gotten on the wrong side of the "cool kids" with my opinions on films. It's always so much easier to go along with the status quo. But.
Jordan Ruimy Which is why critical opinion has tightened up over the last 5 years and you're seeing more widespread acclaim than ever before. Just look at all those movies on metacritic getting 90's- There were never this many since that website started. Terrifying 2015 fact: It's cool to like the movie that everyone else likes and if you don't prepare to defend yourself BIG TIME.

 

Dec 3, 2015

I find it hard to believe that you can watch Julien Donkey-Boy and think that you've seen anything like it before.

 

Dec 3, 2015

you didnt watch it and think it was alot like larry clarks style? also its dogme95 so its literally being made in a very specific european tradition.. i saw festen before i saw JD-B for sure

i mean, ill walk it back some lol... im talking about spring breakers more than anything.

 

Dec 3, 2015

yes, lol. just saying 'Kormine' is true. lol

 

Dec 3, 2015

Mfw @FilmAndWhisky has 5 movies by James Gray on his masterpiece list.

 

Dec 3, 2015

James Gray is dope

 

Dec 3, 2015

"Every movie he's ever made is flawless" dope? I like the guy (especially his relationship with Joaquain), but d--- I must be missing something.