Jun 15, 2015 Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the moment when Melisandre realized she was wrong when Stannis said "what could be worse, a mutiny?". Exactly what happened to Jon.
Jun 15, 2015 What happened after the Red Wedding? Where are the Freys, did they get away with it? What happened to the Brotherhood without Banners, if the war is over who do they fight for? Where is Edmure Tully? Who holds Riverrun the seat of the Tullys? Where is the Blackfish, Roose Bolton said he escaped the Red Wedding? That was in Season 3.
Jun 15, 2015 what I don't get is why did the night's watch let Jon Snow and the wildlings in through the wall in the 1st place to k--- him soon after? Surely if they were that mad at Jon for trying to bring the wildlings in, they would have prevented them from entering in the first place.
Jun 15, 2015 i think reading the books makes some of you WAY to biased man. Stannis's storyline, to a a regular TV viewer, makes PLENTY sense. He was hardhead and all about "duty." He loved his daughter, but not enough to present her to the world, almost in part due to his wife's own insecurities about their daughter. So he's susceptible to be influenced by those he values the most. Thats what Melisesandre preyed on. She's just in it for her self, and needs to place her bets on the right man. She used and chewed through Stannis's (really somewhat flawed) sense of morality until she spit up his corpse. He brought his death on himself because of his blind faith and foolhardy approach to taking the throne. I agree Cersi sending Jamie to get their daughter was contrived as f---, but them sending her the daughter's necklace wasn't really that pointless. I think it was meant to incite a war, which is what they wanted. And now thats what theyll get since they managed to k--- Jamie's daughter anyways (which was a great scene)...
Jun 15, 2015 because im assuming that c---- faced prick didnt have the rest of the nights watch on his side yet. and once everyone saw all the wildlings jon saved and how many of their own men having been dying etc the whispers of mutiny started taking place
Jun 15, 2015 "The one thing ive come to learn about jon snow is he always comes back" - Samwell Tarly
Jun 15, 2015 I agree I have a biased view because I've been invested in the character for a while and I can't see him doing these things and I think it will probably play out differently in the books. It's hard to distinguish book and show up until this season because it's the first time they deviated this much. The show creators have been getting lots of criticism so after they burned Shireen, they said the author wanted that so I guess in a sense you are right. However I think Melisandre legitimately believed he was their savior but at the end she realized if she stayed he'd keep her responsible for everything that went wrong. It'd be interesting to see if Jon Snow is resurrected by her, how much faith he places in her given how many times she cried wolf.
Jun 15, 2015 @Jinn They made us sympathize with him again before his death. Let's not forget that fire destroyed his camp so a lot of your problems can be chalked up to the Lord of Light. It's pretty clear that even Melissandre realized Stannis wan't destined for the throne and that her god wasn't in his favor. Just look at her face when the fires break out. Sure, there are strategy specific problems but those exist with the Unsullied and other places as well. At least desperation had a role in all of the irrational behavior. I mean Stannis just burned his daughter, had his camp destroyed, and his wife killed herself. It's safe to say he wasn't at the peak of his game when planning the course of action that led to him getting f-----.
Jun 15, 2015 yeah with how deliberate some of the dialogue was this finale, im really glad people are pointing this out Stannis's "mutiny" comment being another example im still sticking with this was a GREAT season finale, and a pretty dope season (one of my favorites to date actually)
Jun 15, 2015 Nah I dont think she's dumb enough to believe any of the s--- she gets people like Stannis to fall for She knows how blood magic or dark magic or whatever nonsense works, and she uses that. But shes not any more tapped into the divine than any other normal person. She has no prophetic insight, at least in my eyes. and Stannis was a clear example. She legitimately didnt see the clusterfuck that was coming until the last minute. She could be more complex as a character, and delusional enough to believe that she does have some sort of divine power. On a better written show I could see her convincing herself that Stannis was supposed to die so that she could get to Jon etc, but on the show we're watching I think the depth of her character starts and stops at "oh f---, welp Stannis wasnt it, time to get one step ahead of the people at nights watch" etc (which isnt a bad thing, her character is plenty complex on the show...just saying that I think the extent of her self-awareness is more clear than you're implying. I think she knows shes just using people, and thats all). edit: or maybe im reading this wrong and that IS how GoT is written...that Melisandre actually does believe her own BS. never really thought of it that way
Jun 15, 2015 It's a shame that they could have given danny some quality time for once, like Jinn said; these pages in the book were very interesting. I'm also hyped for her story in the next season, and the next book ofc The clean up crew will arrive next season I guess? There's no way they'll let them get away with it Spoiler maybe sansa will take catelyn's role as ls; brienne will find her, take her back and they'll meet up with the brotherhood and start killing everything? I don't see catelyn coming back after this long, but maybe she will edit: Spoiler Maybe I just want that to happen because it's the first new theory that I've read, and because Sansa is too boring so far It's probably false hope, and she'll just meet petyr or something, if she's alive; looking forward to her story in both the books and the show ... Regarding Snow, he wanted to march and help Stannis, right? I'm not sure if I remember this correctly, but I think that that's what his enemies used as an excuse (their duty is to guard the wall, not to take sides in other wars), after he brought the wildings in. ... Book Stannis and show Stannis are different; what happens in the show makes sense, but it sucks that they changed him into a madman who sacrificed his daughter like we're watching Troy. I also believe that he didn't die in that scene, the dream of being king is certainly dead though. @Narsh I also disagree about Melisandre and the prophecies @Narsh; I just think that she misread them As soon as everyone left stannis (and his wife killed herself), she realised that @Jakey
Jun 15, 2015 They have to respect the chain of command. In the books, Jon does a few things that eventually lead to his stabbing. Rescuing the wildlings, giving Stannis supplies, keeping two dead men locked in cells to study wight behavior. The final straw for them is when he tells them he's going to march against Ramsay, which is punishable by death in the Night's Watch because the Night's Watch isn't supposed to engage in wars in the realm. They didn't sell his stabbing as well as the books did but Jon's constant support of the wildlings and putting the Night's Watch men in danger by going to Hardhome was the final straw. Also, Jon lost a lot of his supporters- Aemon, Grenn, Pyp, Sam, Gilly.
Jun 15, 2015 I think she does believe in her visions but she wouldn't take a chance on her own life that's why she bounced and now we know for certain that she misreads the signs. Stannis' realization on his face when he saw the Bolton army coming was great too. Also during the Battle of Blackwater she claimed she could have saved them so it's only circumstances beyond her reach that got her this far. Davos wasn't buying it so you are right that she tapped into Stannis' stubbornness.
Jun 15, 2015 It'll be very dead lol, the last book was out 4 years ago, not much to talk about. At least now we're both in the same boat, I'm feeling like Jon Snow again edit: lol i misread it, but yeah as long as everyone uses spoiler tags in this thread I think we're gucci, we aren't ahead anymore so it'll be alright
Jun 15, 2015 Jon Snow warged into his dire wolf is the most likely scenario We haven’t seen Jon warg on the show, but book fans are convinced that the leader of the Night’s Watch could have transferred his soul into the body of Ghost. As Jon dies in the books, the last word he says is “Ghost” (which, notably, did not happen on the show). How appropriate that the dire wolf named “Ghost” would capture the soul of his master. Melisandre also utters a prophecy in the books that may apply here: “Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again.” It’s unclear whether she’s talking about Jon, but a Stark would make sense. Melisandre brings Jon back from the dead We know from her attempted seduction of him that Melisandre sees something of worth in Jon. Perhaps she has her own theories about his true parentage. Now that Stannis is presumably dead, Melisandre needs a new messiah. We haven’t seen Melisandre bring anyone back from the dead, but back in Season three, the Red Woman did meet Thoros of Myr, a priest who resurrected a man six times using the power of the Lord of Light. Jon is reborn in fire The Night’s Watch has been careful to burn the bodies of the dead to prevent them from becoming Wights. If you ascribe to the R + L = J theoryabout Jon’s mother this could have some interesting implications. If Jon does have Targaryen blood, he might be able to survive or even be resurrected by fire, much like Daenerys was unharmed by fire during the birth of her dragons in season one.
