May 2, 2016

I read the list and agreed with almost all of the selections(there were a few albums I'd like to see but what list isn't like that?). And I knew someone would bring up MMLP. @WPG how tired are you talking about this? I still like Eminem a lot but I didn't notice that Eminem was left off until I started reading the comments.

 

May 2, 2016

A d--- shame we can't have any threads like this without bringing up that recluse who does not have a single classic album.

 

May 2, 2016

@Narsh waiting...

i can feel u

 

May 2, 2016

I will absolutely, absolutely grant you that Eminem was the most visible connection between rap itself and rock or rock/rap. I think you're making some big assumptions by saying he tapped into the same pathos as the Beasties, at least early on; remember that this guy became a phenomenon with really dark, violent, brooding music. The strongest through-line there is simply the fact that he's white.

I'm also not ready to concede that he was the foundation on which Asher Roth was built. (And again, I don't think that's a bad thing to say.)

Well this is apropos of nothing, lol. I think "Lose Yourself" is great! I don't think any of his solo albums hold up.

Yeah I don't buy this at all. Eminem is barely in the conversation as far as "most confessional/personal rappers" goes. It's unusual that someone with his level of fame does anything, because he was a popular phenomenon on a level that we've hardly ever seen. Weren't we just talking about Scarface?

 

May 2, 2016

WPG: Do you think his work holds up at all?
Papa Andy: Yes, Lose Yourself.
WPG: well, that's apropos of nothing!

Yes, you've rebutted with Scarface before. And like... ok. a. i didn't say "most confessional," so lets not set a trick wire there... b. I've acknowledged already Eminem wasn't necessarily the first but that's moot. We can debate Elvis or the Beatles having a cultural and artistic impact despite them lifting trends from lesser known artists, yes? Do you rly think none of the early-mid 00s confessional/personal records (kanye, joe budden, 50 shouting out Marquise and shaming vivica) would exist without eminem? or at least it's a question of scale right. (not to mention, when i first tha carter 2, i was at my college radio station on the rap block - playing def jux- when someone said: "lil wayne is dope. he's like sslp era eminem" -you can scoff now, but this was 2005)

moreover, i know you gag at the records argument -- it'd be a historic anomaly for someone of eminem's success to not leave any kind of mark. if we were talking glamour rock, would you rly be arguing: "sure queen sold over 100 million records, but their success exists in a vacuum... no musicians/a&r ever tried to capitalize on freddy mercurys template"

we know the festivals he played when he first came out though. i didn't say pathos, but i just think it's fair acknowledging there was a window where he (the pre-pop icon) was marketed as an artist rhcp, ratm, beastie fans could dig. all white performers who rapped with a rock 'edge'... catering to white fans. much of his discography exploits this, to varying success, so it's not exactly a controversial point. (if you agree, fine... im mostly conveying eminem isn't some anomaly)

re: asher, i mean, my point is the audience (anecdotally, me and my friends), spent ms and hs on the late 90s acts i mentioned, then were the logical group to initially embrace asher. bc we were college age when he came out. besides the fact he actually raps about eminem on asleep in the bread aisle, much of the album plays like a more fined, pc, less explicit suburban version of eminem's early juvenile, decidely un-preppy material. it feels like a deliberate critique, like two sides of the same coin.

i think it's fairly transparent, so im a bit at a loss. in the 80s, hip hop has a few veins, right? disco rap, hardcore, punk rap, these eventually converged (so to speak) and burst onto the mainstream... why can't the late 90s rock rap scene evolve as well? why cant eminem have any place in these traditions?

--
and to all the kids out there trying to get on Paul's good side by lamenting we keep having the same conversations about Eminem, I agree. But it's solely because he doesn't yield! Good for him lol, but I wouldn't be setting a good example by forfeiting just bc he's persistent. We're here to debate, and be thoughtful, after all.

 

May 2, 2016

Haha--I mean, we were talking about MMLP. But okay: I'll grant you that his biggest song holds up.

Yes. Absolutely. I'm not being obtuse here at all--Jay Z was the biggest album-oriented rapper in the world other than Eminem, and he closed his second album with stories about accidentally shooting his brother and his regret over manipulating a girlfriend into selling crack for him. Country Grammar came out the same year as MMLP--go and listen to the personal narrative aspects on that.

If you wanted to make an argument that I could rebut, you should have said "Eminem was an example of personal narrative grounding rap music for people who were previously unfamiliar with the genre."

You didn't like "Go DJ"?

Sure, it would be an anomaly, but Eminem is an anomaly. He was a battle rapper who became a pop star because he was white and because he secured the proper co-signs. Point me to the disciples! People didn't replicate Eminem because it's very hard to--you have to be a tremendous talent in a highly technical kind of rapping, and you have to be able to harness teen angst that was drying up as the culture shifted in the decade following SSLP. The cultural moment that made Eminem Eminem wasn't permanent. That's not a criticism, I think that's just accurate history.

 

May 2, 2016

A. I wasn't talking about mmlp specifically? Apologies if something got crosswired
B. I'm not making arguments for you to rebut -- seems like I'm making arguments for you to dodge!
C. I honestly don't remember. That memory of Wayne stands out however -- and liking Shooter
D. Well, I've made several arguments linking Eminem to recent trends and how he connects rap rock from the days of kid rock and ratm to Mac Miller. There's absolutely an evolution and Eminem is a part of that. Like yes, his biography/success is unique. But it's also not rly, you just have to change the lens. Again, not controversial: he's the most famous recent example of a white artist in a black musical genre reaching unprecedented heights.

I'm on my phone now but I've rebutted your points with prime references -- sure in 2016 no one will EXACTLY recapture his success/impact on the zeitgeist.

(haven't heard country grammar front to cover in a bit so bit confused by your point there. Like nelly Eminem is a Midwestern rapper with sing song pop hits that peaked in the early 2000s whose music has drifted into genre flirtation no? With nelly it's out right country, with Eminem 70s Rock. All a dream beat was passed off recovery. Similar artists in a few ways. Yet one gets pauls stamp #hm)

 

May 2, 2016

It's really weird to me how poorly eminem's music has aged. Been listening to it lately and I feel weird listening to some of it. It's just so weird to hear a man act like a rebellious petulant 10 year old in 2016 in such an overt manner. Although, I can still look past it to some extent in some songs and enjoy them regardless. They still have their endearing qualities here and there. Maybe mostly nostalgia based but whatever. I mean they definitely do... it's just tough for them to outweigh how outdated the music is.

Been listening to Remember Me lately a lot tho. Classic song. Dat energy

 

May 2, 2016

This is probably my favorite Eminem song of all time

Very impressive from a technical point of view, and good storytelling.

 

May 3, 2016

how did i know this would turn back into an eminem discussion

 

May 3, 2016

It happens literally always, i have no idea why.

 

May 3, 2016

I was just about to post that it's a shame that every @WPG thread turns into a "Why didn't Eminem make it?" discussion.

Then again, I just contributed to that discussion, though.

 

May 3, 2016

Not only that, people started talking about Eminem in the RIP Prince thread..

 

May 3, 2016

People make it so hard to defend Eminem with s--- like that. Now, I want to delete my post in this thread

 

May 3, 2016

Literally just deleted that post because f--- Eminem's fans.

 

May 3, 2016

the MMLP hate...

 

May 3, 2016

ftr, i won this debate handily.

 

May 30, 2016

MF DOOM is older than Eminem and he raps about comic book superheroes and s--- while wearing a mask but that doesn't stop me from listening to him. Same with Eminem.

 

May 30, 2016

Listening to Grief Pedigree because of the list. It's really dope.
Cover is s--- tho

 

May 30, 2016

Horrible production? I think it suits Eminem well. Cheesy? Depends whether you like the subject matter or not.